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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Oct 18, 2011 7:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: About Bob / Adoption

By no means a flaming - Sean, you will only get light, not heat, from me.

"....I was not an adopted child for the record."

Your statement says all that needs to be said. You don't have the perspective an adopted child does. Why they seek out their bio parents is entirely up to them. My friends who have been through this effort did so with the blessing of their adopted parents. In most cases the reunion was a very happy one and two (or more) families were expanded.

The only negative experience I am aware of was a good friend finding his biological mother and brother and setting up a meeting after 25+ years. His mother and brother were killed in a car accident two days before they were supposed to meet.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 18, 2011 8:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: About Bob / Adoption

Understanding the human experience that are congruent w/ one's own path does not exclude understanding those that are not. If a woman is in pain, I can't relate to that b/c I am a man? I can't relate to an adopted person b/c I'm not adopted?

That is a very slippery slope. The examples litter history and are ugly.

And I am glad that happy endings were the result for some of your friends. The last paragraph is heartbreaking.

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Poster: craven714 Date: Oct 18, 2011 2:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: About Bob / Adoption

I just cant pass this one up. I am also adopted after less
than a year of birth. I have many takes on the subject,
as I have had decades of experiences and plenty of time to
think about, have discussions, have many introspect ions,
the pain of the abandonment issues, and just feelings that
can not be expressed.

You know what I tell people who am open enough tell (as
it doesnt come up in normal convo) that Im adopted when
they ask "Ever think about finding your "real" parents?"

I say, "Nope. I got the message the first time."

There have been many joking times over the years, once you get old enough to deal with them. I have a million of 'em.
One of my favs is, " ahhhhh, you look just like you mother"
I say, "oh, do you know her?". Or I just have a good laugh.

It took a few decades, but when someone in my family does
something stupid, I can look at them and say, "Damn, Im
glad Im not related to you".

Personal moment: Everyone who is adopted has their own take
on things, different stories, and events that only THAT
person can feel. Lemme share one of mine that only I can
feel (Sean).

The very first time you are told you're
adopted: Apparently my parents told me when I was really
to young to understand the first time (maybe 4 and half).
Whats the proper age? Shitifiknow... But I must have just
nodded my tiny head in agreement of understanding, and it
was left at that. Never mentioned again... Until......
Age 6: I was in the bathroom next to a room where my
parents were entertaining some guests from the town we just
moved from, and I overheard my mom say, " Oh, I remember
when we adopted "craven", (and story continued).
It took a little while to sink in. Did she just say what I
thought she said? I remember running out of the bathroom
screaming "Im adopted?!?" The response: " oh honey, we told
you, we thought you knew..." Not a good scene, but you
gotta learn some how, right?

And that is just ONE instance. But that first one kinda
sticks with you. Something you will never understand Sean.
You know I usually understand your takes and views on
things, and whether I disagree or agree is up to me I know,
but have to respectfully call bullshit on your:

"Understanding the human experience that are congruent w/ one's own path does not exclude understanding those that are not. If a woman is in pain, I can't relate to that b/c I am a man? I can't relate to an adopted person b/c I'm not adopted?"

So you know what it is like to give birth? You know what is
like to be a slave traded from Africa? How was that
abortion that you had? Can you pick up the phone right
now and call your mom? Go boil yourself in oil? Ever
clean up you Uncles brains after he blew his head off with
a shotgun? Killing your dog is different than me killing
mine, even though its basically the same action.

The fact that you said that you can feel other peoples pain?
I didnt see that one coming I must say. I have to
stop there but I hope you get the picture my friend.
Im not try to really go off on you. Lets just say you
blew my mind. To think that I might know some of YOUR ex-
periences in life? I will NEVER know the experience of
being a dad to someone. You can. For me to think that I
I know the feeling of fatherhood would be arrogant of me.


WT has pretty much the right ideas:

"the bonds of parenting are formed via the process, and thus I am inclined to agree that ado "should" view their current parents as "real" in all respects. However, one cannot deny the biological basis for the formation of any individual, and it has at least some consequences, from trivial to critical (eg, medical issues). And given the motivation of bio ma & pa may or may not fit the scenario you allude to (to flush or not to flush? sorry, poor taste), I think in the end we have to grant a great deal of latitude to all parties concerned in these matters." - WT

It is the nature vs nurture thing, environment, economic
status, a bunch of stuff. Stuff that some will never
understand. There is a lot I will never understand, and I
have no problem admitting it.

Sorry for the rant, I know this is not Dead related (frowned
upon), but like I said, I just couldnt pass this one up.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 18, 2011 3:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: About Bob / Adoption

c, first of all I don't care what's frowned upon.

c, as I wrote, we all have a basic, fundamental understanding of what it means to be human. Do I understand your life or your reactions, emotions in your life? No. Can I relate to what you just wrote and see pain, hidden at times through humor, or just simply pain? Yes I can and do.

Can't you feel for someone who is going through loss? pain? rejection? dying? joy? elation? The examples you provided do not change this fact. When someone here writes of a life circumstance, good or bad, don't many people post and offer support? Why would they do that?

craven, I did not mean to cause you pain. I am sorry that I did so. I did not find the right combination of words, or soften them.

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Poster: craven714 Date: Oct 18, 2011 9:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: About Bob / Adoption

Please, I have hangnails that cause me more pain than you.
(insert humorous tone here).
Naw man, we all have our ways. Im glad we can express
varied opinions here.

So if we go down to basic, then I get it.
'Can't you feel for someone who is going through loss? pain? rejection? dying? joy? elation?'
N0, not truly ever, but basically, yes.

Why people respond to whatever they want to respond to is
up to them. woohoo. I tend to stay away from the dead
dog and dead spouse postings. But Im all abord the adoption
train huh?
Who the fuck am I to say. Its empathy? Whatsever...
You did not cause me pain, for only I can do that.
Hell, maybe your words differ from mine. So be it.
I appreciate your opinions and posts man. I will hit ya on the downlow. peace

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 19, 2011 4:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: About Bob / Adoption

Thank God c. I was so down after your post. Frankly, in some ways, I still am, but that's my deal. I keep ruminating about your post and some things you wrote. Some images I can't get out of my head.
Since I have been on IA, I never have been as scared as I was last night and in the small hours today. Everyone's load is heavy in this life and I hate when I add to it. When you reach inside the heart of someone else it's shit you don't cavalierly mess with either way. I am going to seriously reconsider my approach here on this forum. Sometimes you get into spats, arguments, worse. That mostly counts for little. This was a whole different ballgame. A whole different league. I am truly sorry c.

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Oct 18, 2011 10:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: About Bob / Adoption

I'm in here as well.....I was adopted at 3 days old....!!!!!! I have only wondered why but never searched for the answers. ...why not?u

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 18, 2011 10:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: About Bob / Adoption

I think a major component is where you come in on the nature/nurture debate. Though long "settled" in academic circles (false dichotomy), it surfaces regularly in its practical applications, or is just beneath the surface in so much of what "typical folks" do (don't mean to sound so patronizing, but folks make all sorts of decisions/inferences because they at some level feel genes influence human traits heavily or the environment does more so).

IE, for those that believe it's all how you were raised, and genes are largely irrelevant, then of course finding their bio parents might be just a mere whim or fancy, and clearly they feel they owe it ALL to their adoptive parents. For those that ascribe all sorts of significance to relatedness, and cosmic connections of a familial sort (I fancy Bob leans in this direction from the stories above), then finding the owners of the genetic material that recombined to produce YOU, might be very much more significant.

Again, NOT saying myself whether either of these polarized for clarity's sake positions are "right" or "wrong" (truly), but trying to offer insight as to why some folks might view the search in other terms (often without necessarily recognizing it).

EG, note how much Bob's half bro "looks like him" (and how people take this for granted) or "has similar interests", blah, blah, blah.

This leaves aside the mundane reasons people have directly related to relatedness (no pun intended): ie, gene disorders, etc., etc.

My own personal view is that the bonds of parenting are formed via the process, and thus I am inclined to agree that adoptees "should" view their current parents as "real" in all respects. However, one cannot deny the biological basis for the formation of any individual, and it has at least some consequences, from trivial to critical (eg, medical issues). And given the motivation of bio ma & pa may or may not fit the scenario you allude to (to flush or not to flush? sorry, poor taste), I think in the end we have to grant a great deal of latitude to all parties concerned in these matters.

IE, I don't think there's an easy answer on the "shud" front...

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Oct 18, 2011 3:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: About Bob / Adoption

I agree WT. I mean, who the hell am I? It's the first place people go to in this discussion, if not the medical reason. If a bio Mom checks off on the bureaucratic forms that she wants to be contacted in 18 years, the path is open. If not, things can get messy, quickly. The hunger to know that so many adoptees feel is as real as it gets. It's an incredibly emotional issue. And how is a spouse, adoptee parent or 'sibling', or anyone for that matter, going to fill that need to know or tell them to stop searching?

On nature/nurture I agree that it is a false dichotomy, as is the freewill/predestination question. On these matters of biology I would defer to you for the obvious reason.

I am concerned w/ two aspects from this issue. The first is summed up in my response to Mando. I believe in the universality of all humans on a basic level. To love/and what to be loved. To cry. To laugh. Etc. I get very nervous when we divide ourselves into boxes which inevitably leads to 'The Other'. That is dangerous. I may not know the manner you live your life WT, but I do know you on a fundamental level, as you me. When that is forgotten or cast aside it can lead to viewing 'The Other' as less than human, or not human at all. Examples abound in history and today as well.

Finally, the messy and painful reunions. To hear from bio Mom or Dad, I don't care about you. Your presence is going to ruin my life. Go away. You are a reminder of an awful part of my life. The adoptee has to carry this for the rest of their lifetime. The response then is nothing ventured, nothing gained. This is among the highest risks a person might take. There is no recourse for the above responses, except often knowing you were rejected, directly. It takes a mighty strong will and sense of oneself to climb out of that pit. As I mentioned I have been close to this issue a few times and have seen one friend who was adopted crumple under that rejection. I know this is anecdotal, but he is no longer with us by his own hand. That is extreme an example as it gets, but it is in play if the path is not open. I would say use extreme caution, and agreed there are no should's.